I get PMs and visits from people that say the same thing about you, that you say about me. The difference could be the people that I talk and visit with have done all the things you recommend for 10 to 20 years and nothing has changed, actually gotten MUCH worse. This is all while they get their authority from a swearing in process called the "oath of office" to the laws and system I promote (Declaration of Independence, The Bill Of Rights and Constitution). It bothers me that the schools teach the children the system I promote is the law, and why people like to move to America while we actually live in a communist/socialist/crony capitalist system which you defend all the time. Answer me this one thing Mickjen, where do you work, where do you get your income from? I am an independent welder/metal fabricator in a depression (we are NOT in a recession!), barely getting by for myself, many times a month going a day or two without eating, never mind paying for other people on "assistance". Where do you derive your $$ from mickjen? It will help me understand your motivations for insulting me.
For the record, I didn't refer to him as an idiot, I was quoting the private emails, sent to me through this site, that happens anytime I call Bill out for his extremist and insulting posts.
And like I said, change doesn't come from this back n forth bickering. It comes from action.
So, if anyone wants to be real helpful, well, here:
Contact the White House: http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/
Brown, Scott P. - (R - MA) Class I
359 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
Web Form: scottbrown.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/emailscottbrown
Kerry, John F. - (D - MA) Class II
218 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
Web Form: kerry.senate.gov/contact/
Congressman Olver https://forms.house..../issue_subscribe.htm
Boston, MA Massachusetts State House
Office of the Governor
Office of the Lt. Governor
Boston, MA 02133
888.870.7770 (in state)
Western Massachusetts Office of the Governor
State Office Building
436 Dwight Street
Springfield, MA 01103
And as a reminder to all, I didn't grow up here, I grew up in Missouri, so you have to SHOW ME. I don't just like to bitch, I like to get things done. Which I why I stopped posting here long ago. Nothing gets accomplished. I had to refrain from commenting on the Korean store thing too.... Ya'll may think just posting on here has no real "person" to insult, but just this week,
- the Mini-Mart was disrespected
- Several people continue to post about a young man, even after his mother has asked for it to stop
And frankly, Mark1, Mark2, patrick, Jeff S, Mike N, mik and junkman, this is YOUR board. Wonder why there's not many other voices?....
I <3 you mik, and the work that you do outside this board, but this place reeks of Old Boys Club....
Ok, Mark. After reviewing all these questions, clearly you need a little help with your research. I'll answer some of these questions to the best of my ability, but there's thing thing called "Google" that would help in your quest for knowledge.
> Has the tea party forced this government to over spend, to spend beyond our means.
No. However, you may want to look at the policies of the administration during the eight years previous to the current administration for part of your answer, and the state of the economy and the deficit on January 20th, 2009, as well as the periodic slope of unemployment at that time (I believe it was nearly vertical -- see previous posts on this issue).
As for the past two and a half years, you should look at the recommendations of most qualified economists, as well as the recommendations of the economic advisers to the previous administration on how to pull the country out of the cluster #$%^&* it found itself in just three months before election day, 2008.
My opinion is that the economic advisers to the previous administration didn't know what the hell they were doing, but that's just me, and I apologize for pointing any fingers.
> Has the tea party caused Obamas stimulus package to fail,
Many economists state unequivocally that the stimulus package didn't go far enough, which is why it didn't have the full impact desired. I believe Obama was taking a page out of Reagan's book, where "deficit spending" is the recommended action for pulling a country out of a depression. Discuss.
> did the tea party sucker Americans into believing there were 'shovel ready' jobs.
Though there may not have been as many as he hoped for, I don't think anyone was "suckered." There were many projects that did exist, but as a nominee I doubt Obama had access to all the records of every state about the number of public projects that existed. Additionally, if you believe everything that every politician said, then you are indeed a sucker. As a counter argument I could easily say someone in the Bush whitehouse lied to Obama about the number of "shovel ready jobs" there were.
The "shovel ready" jobs that did exist came and went. I guess you were sleeping through 2009 and 2010, because they were literally everywhere. I have photos of signs in Easthampton, Montague and other locations. Did you miss them?
> Did the tea party ram Obama care down our throats against the will of the majority of Americans.
By majority you're talking about 49% to 51%?
> Is the tea party still keeping both wars running.
No, but the current administration is reducing the number of troops. We do agree, however, that the reduction is way too slow, but the current pace of reduction is being made by military experts hired by the previous administration who were in charge when the troops were first deployed. Everyone in that administration believed the troops should stay there for decades. True, it wasn't the Tea Party at the time. My understanding is it was another party responsible for that. Let me know if you need help remembering who that was.
> Just checking.
Thanks for keeping us all on our toes. We really could have used your help between 2000 and 2008. it's this kind of eagle-eyed, staunch determinism that keeps democracy alive in this American country of ours.
Bottom line, you're changing the subject. If it's the S&P decision you're worried about, it was both parties work, but mostly the Tea Party who made the downgrade happen. Plain and simple. Whether you agree or disagree with S&P's rationale or reasoning has nothing to do with it. They said "if you do this, we're going to downgrade the country" and the Tea Party ignored them. Now you're blaming "shovel ready jobs." What?!?
In the end, you have your ideologies set in stone, buffed and polished such that no evidence can alter them. I agree that the current administration wasted its first two years, I disagree that the current situation in this country is entirely their fault, or even the majority of their fault, with the exception that they mostly followed the economic repair policies set into motion by the previous administration. I again refer you to the last six months of the previous administration.
I also refer you to Michelle Bachmann, who enjoined us all to celebrate Elvis' birthday on the anniversary of his death, and to the social policies of almost every republican nominee at the present moment. The only one who seems sane is our own dear previous Governor, who invented "Romney-Care", now called Obama-Care. Beautiful.
Has the tea party forced this government to over spend, to spend beyond our means. Has the tea party caused Obamas stimulus package to fail, did the tea party sucker Americans into believing there were " shovel ready" jobs. Did the tea party ram Obama care down our throats against the will of the majority of Americans. Is the tea party still keeping both wars running. Just checking.
"Clinton and now Obama show that in fact there are very few real liberals in the Democratic party."
It's true that both Clinton and Obama moved to the center after being elected. Clinton was also the most effective President in recent memory, though one could argue that good fortune landed in his lap. However, he also had to recover from an even worse midterm defeat than Obama in his first term and then the whole impeachment circus in his second term.
I don't see why it's a problem that Obama has moved to the center. He's the President of the entire country, not just the leftist fringe. Besides, according to Rachel Maddow, who's no centrist, he's actually accomplished 85% of what he campaigned on: http://www.politicususa.com/en/maddow-obama-agenda. Why people won't give him a break is beyond my comprehension, but, again, I find that to happen mostly on the fringes.
> the Democratic center of yesteryear has moved way left
Really? If you ask me, Clinton and now Obama show that in fact there are very few real liberals in the Democratic party. Obama is *not* that far left of center, no matter what you may think. He's definitely not liberal enough for me, that's for certain.
"The GOP's mantra seems to be "blame the other guys and keep doing it louder and louder until people believe you no matter what you say". Sadly, the other side's not much different."
I agree that there are some similarities here between the left and the right - especially if you happen to live here in the Valley. but my central argument is that the GOP is really no longer a big tent party. Even mainstream Republicans regularly resort to very very extreme rhetoric about the motives of the other side (see quote below from Rick Perry) and there is no political center in the GOP that is willing to come to compromise, find balanced solutions to problems like health care and the debt.
Sure Democrats also use rhetoric as do all parties throughout our history but they are much a broader based, traditional party with a political center (like the GOP used to be) and the mainstream presidential candidates tend to avoid the following....
“We reject this president’s unbridled fixation on taking more money out of the wallets and pocketbooks of American families and employers and giving it to a central government,”... In America, the people are not subjects of government, the government is subject to the people (Rick Perry, Gov of Texas and Rep Candidate for President)
I'm sorry but this is just plan nutty and toxic.
The goal is not to blame anyone. This question is how do we solve problems and move this country forward. The conservative point of view is a legitimate one, although I may disagree. We have traditionally had two parties, which despite what some may say are not at all the same and never have been. There has always been rhetoric and emotional conflict. But there needs to be some sort of rational center that compromises, solves problems etc.
That is not happening now and for me the objective reality is that is mainly because of the nature of the current Republican party, which is outside the norm..
> Are you blaming the republicans for the rating drop from S&P.
Believe what you want, Mark, but the Tea Party members of the Republican party are primarily responsible for that downgrade, in my mind anyway. Boehner was ready to make a deal, early on, and his own party shot it down. It was at THAT POINT that the S&P issued their warning. The Tea Party caucus ignored the warning, and continued to refuse any compromises or concessions. Typical shock and awe, paternal iron thumb bullshit from the cocky cowboy party.
I guess your point is the Dems and Obama should have completely rolled over and spread them for the Tea Party to avoid the downgrade? All economists say now is not the time to pull this kind of no-holds-barred reduction crap.
In any event, would any sane person vote for someone like Bachmann or Palin? Would you vote for Perry? You thought Bush was a few apples short of a bushel, and you hated the born-again stuff, and the unnecessary wars? Well just you wait. Anyone of those loonies get into office and this country will be nothing more than smoking ruins in four years. Where's my space ship?
Yes, I'm disappointed with Obama, but am sooooo thankful McCain and Palin didn't get into the Whitehouse. Holy shit, what a cluster (* that would have been. You can't argue with that.
Woah, Jen, take it easy. Bill is entitled to his thoughts, and he's obviously passionate about what he says. He hasn't called us names as you just have, (he said "you guys" which isn't quite the same as "you people") so though it will probably pain you, I hope you'll refrain from attacking him, or anyone here. And for sure, calling him an "idiot" was a bit too much. Let's keep the conversation a little more civil.
As for me, I believe there are several kernels of truth in what Bill says, but feel there is really nothing that can be done to stop the progress of humanity. The world is becoming smaller and smaller with every day, and it may not be a bad thing to have some sort of overarching entity that makes sure people aren't pouring arsenic into the rivers or doing other such things, both here and in other countries, because it will eventually get back to us.
Going back to a feudal system or a system of absolute lack of government, in this day and age, would quickly result in anarchy. In my opinion, anyway. And I know I'm going to get shit for saying that. Just don't call me a traitor. I'm an Earthling, first and foremost, and feel nationalism is sometimes detrimental to the general welfare of the species.
Any post where you refer to us as "you people" and then includes a YouTube video, yes, I readily dismiss you.
Your tone is consistently inappropriate, you're insulting, unwilling to handle a discussion in a mature fashion, let alone consider another viewpoint. You're the angry sheep, dude... you bought into the whole rotten apple, and yes, I am content to turn a blind eye to the major US media.
I don't like the current political climate, so I write my reps. What I DON'T do is post here, like you and others, to argue over bullshit that we don't change by insulting our neighbors.
I'd rather attend selectboard meetings, or write/call someone who can make a difference, and if that still doesn't work, I just volunteer to be part of the change.
Bill, and the many others who think just because you are some cute handle here, ya'll need to realize, you're fighting with, gossiping about and just generally sticking it to your neighbors.
People don't tire of this board because the dialogue is always the same, they tire because it's always catty and counter-productive to intelligent thought....
And I'll say it again, go ahead and call me ignorant, Bill, you have NO idea how many people from this board have PM'd to tell me to just ignore the idiot.... it's just sad to check my morning emails andhave such rantings and insults before my first damn cup of coffee....
Are you blaming the republicans for the rating drop from S&P. Both sides were dead locked in a pissing contest while the world watched. I'm not sure Obama did all he could have or should have to speed the process along. Currently his re election tour is again about blaming everyone else but himself for his failed policies. November 2012 can't get here fast enough for me. Although isn't the world suppose to end in 2012 , if so then this is all a waste of time. Lol
"Where are the voices of the extreme left you're supposedly hearing, Patrick?"
I can't find the part where I wrote "in the government". I'm talking about the media, and about people in general. I hope you don't actually need a list of people in the media who just point fingers, act as if they have all the answers and refuse to ever find common ground. And, frankly, it's all over the valley: you're not really allowed to try to see a differing point of view, you're supposed to just recite your side's positions from memory and deride the opposition. Same thing, with different names, that happens at the Bachman rallies.
I am posting this to show how wrong you all could be about your political theories as you discussed in this thread. I can't join in the discussion with you guys because you refuse to look at all the information using the scientific method, always believing the propaganda. I can always show you people the real story and you will just call it crazy. I see the big picture, and this left/right belief in a benevolent government discussed here on Montaguema is the real conspiracy theory. The New World Order owns this town through financing and propaganda, very sad indeed.
And BTW, on a side note, the amount of crap that we "liberals" got, back in 2004 or so, from speaking out against Bush (including someone egging my car) was unreal, both on TV, and even on this website. We were traitors and were told to leave the country because obviously we didn't love America.
However, there isn't a day that goes by on the conservative blogs and TV shows where not only do they deride him, but some of them speak openly about how they'd like him to fail. And there are those on this website who also openly deride our president now, yet you don't hear "liberals" telling anyone to leave the country or calling them traitors.
Just making an observation. You may all return to your Bud Lights.
> I think the GOP is playing the pay back game for when Pelosi and company ran rough shot over the country with their majority with regards to Obama care etc.
Well, that's kind of petty, don't you think? With the S&P warning that they were going to downgrade the US's credit rating if congress didn't become more functional you'd think the party of fiscal responsibility would have splashed some water on their faces, drank a cup of coffee, and showed us all what civil, responsible hard-working public servants they were... that the outcome was more important than the fight. Apparently they were in it just to give Obama a black eye? Nice.
RickH, I second your question. Where are the voices of the extreme left you're supposedly hearing, Patrick? I can't think of a one on the national scene at the moment. Bernie Sanders. That's about it. And how much air time does Bernie get as compared to, say, Bachman or the ex-gov from Alaska?
Patrick: I agree with your last paragraph very much.
I , however, would like to remind everyone that for the majority of the first two years plus, Pres. Obama DID ,almost ALWAYS, blamed the other side for everything that was,nt going right. He REALLY just got quite a bit more concillatory from this May to late July over the debt limit issue , because really, he HAD to !
I too wish that both sides could work towards a win/win discussion for the good of the COUNTRY not just for, what appears to be, their own party.and the next election.
"I remain convinced that Barack Obama is one of the stars here -- not because I like all the things he's been doing (I don't), but because he seems genuinely willing to make a deal with people who don't agree with him. Are there any Republicans who show the same willingness? -- so far, I haven't seen any, and the upcoming Republican primary process doesn't look promising."
Whatever his faults, Obama has refrained from just blaming the other side (even when their uncompromising, shrill rhetoric might warrant it) and makes an effort to work with both sides. So, obviously, he's being called a waffler, a traitor, etc.
I find it interesting that the people who disapprove so strongly of Obama are the people at the extremes. The only President who would appease such people is one who spits in his enemy's eye and never gives an inch on anything. The extreme right and the extreme left are actually a lot closer to one another than they are to the rest of us, IMO, and, unfortunately, they are both trying to monopolize the debate.
I think the GOP is playing the pay back game for when Pelosi and company ran rough shot over the country with their majority with regards to Obama care etc. It's election time so that means more blame games and less action on both sides.
IMHO, the question is: What is the job? You're a plumber -- you show up at the house and the husband says he wants a new bathroom put in what used to be a closet. The wife says they don't need a new bathroom -- they need the leak fixed in the kitchen and a new faucet on the outside of the house.
IMHO, the question is: Given that our country is more or less evenly divided between people who think government should be doing more and should be given the resources to do so, and people who think the government should be doing less and the resources it's getting now should be cut back, who among our national "leaders" is prepared to work with people who disagree with them to try to come up with workable solutions to the very real problems that are facing us?
I don't think it's playing the "blame game" to say that people who have no interest in trying to find solutions aren't helping (to put it mildly), and that Republicans and Democrats are both responsible. I also don't think it's playing the "blame game" to actually look at what people are saying and doing and judge them based on that. The fact that both sides are at fault does NOT imply that they are equally at fault, and I think that that a discussion of how to move forward should not focus on who's wrong but on who's willing to try to figure out what can be done.
I remain convinced that Barack Obama is one of the stars here -- not because I like all the things he's been doing (I don't), but because he seems genuinely willing to make a deal with people who don't agree with him. Are there any Republicans who show the same willingness? -- so far, I haven't seen any, and the upcoming Republican primary process doesn't look promising.
So I'm not trying to play the blame game, but I'm asking the question: who among the Republicans is willing to try to work with people they don't agree with? The only name I can come up with is Scott Brown, and he's not very high up on the totem pole. Any others?
The GOP's mantra seems to be "blame the other guys and keep doing it louder and louder until people believe you no matter what you say". Sadly, the other side's not much different. Until people stop this incessant yelling and blaming, we're just all stuck on a seesaw.
"If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it."
Now here is my problem with the Republican Party and why I think it represents a clear and present danger to the American republic. Below is a quote from Rick Perry, newly announced Republican candidate for president, Governor of Texas and hardly the most extreme of the Republicans....(From the NY post)
“We reject this president’s unbridled fixation on taking more money out of the wallets and pocketbooks of American families and employers and giving it to a central government,” he said. “In America, the people are not subjects of government, the government is subject to the people."
Now I can understand being more conservative than the President, thinking there is too much big government and so forth, criticizing specific policies with the usual political rhetoric. But this is nuts. The notion that Obama has an "unbridled fixation" on taking money out of "the pocketbooks of American families and employers" is just plain crazy.
Their are two possibilities. Either
1. Perry and the Republican base actually believe this junk, in which case they are completely out of touch with reality and we should bring in the men in white coats or
2. They have a sense of entitlement to say absolutely anything they want about their political opponents because all is fair in war and politics.
Perhaps a combination of the two actually but at some point, probably in a future generation, many young American citizens will say enough is enough. That is what happened in the 1850s, when a majority of northerners said enough is enough of southern demands to extend slavery to the west. Ironically, that led to the creation of the GOP.
My point is this.... don't take this country for granted.